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Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@JBritt312 @NotABigJerk By being more charitable you would be less wrong. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@brucekesselring @NotABigJerk Yes, I agree. Which situates the debate at least partly in the realm of *what is medically appropriate.* And I think disagreement on that is most of what people actually disagree about. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@docMJP Can you give a few examples of the children's books you're talking about? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@millypunkrock @Melhyphen I mean, aren't outside forces inextricable from all of these questions? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@penfoldsfiv @NotABigJerk I'm not alleging hypocrisy. I myself have no consistent standard on these questions. I am pointing out that the folks talking as if they do have simple, consistent answers are fooling themselves. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@NotABigJerk @D_A_Clarke I didn't present an analogy where they correspond, I correctly noted that both present us with the question *should kids themselves get to decide all questions about their sex and gender identity, regardless of what they choose*? And you think the answer is no. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@EyesOnTheRight I don't think anyone else decided either for me, but they certainly decided at what age I should be taught sex ed, and what it should encompass, and what to teach me about sex and gender, etc — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@NotABigJerk I think you sensibly want the request of children who ask for conversion therapy denied, while also sensibly thinking gender affirming care for trans kids can do good, but that you're reluctant to admit you don't in fact believe *do whatever kids want* is a viable standard — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@D_A_Clarke @NotABigJerk It's not a trap. I also oppose conversion therapy and support gender affirming approaches to trans kids. I'm just clear that my actual judgment is not *kids always have the right to decide all identity matters for themselves* — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@docMJP What do you mean "grooming tools"? I assume you don't mean that the author is trying to have sex with kids... so what? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@NotABigJerk It's not an insane hypothetical. It's something actual children in conservative subcultures actually request, having been acculturated to falsely believe that being gay is wrong. Do you think their request should be honored or denied? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@kgborland And that inconsistency is fine. I have it too. It just clarifies that this debate isn't just over who decides. It's also about judging the merits of the thing itself. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@kgborland I'm pointing out that your actual belief is not *children should be empowered to decide whatever they think is best no matter what*––sometimes (for example, if you judge that a certain choice amounts to torture) you think the child should be stopped by the state or parents. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Melhyphen I am saying that your actual standard doesn't seem to be *let children decide it's up to them* but rather *let children decide unless the state has determined that their choice is objectively harmful*. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@clayranck @Rationalist69 @Melhyphen How would you articulate their similarities and differences? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Andrew_B_Bader You're as bad as the MAGA trolls. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Andrew_B_Bader @neo_antiquarian Andrew, I can't tell if you are pro-conversion therapy or couldn't tell the tweet was anti-conversion therapy. Either way, always good to see educators modeling discourse by choosing ad hominem memes instead of engagement. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@neo_antiquarian @Andrew_B_Bader The point of the Tweet is that most people would sensibly refuse to honor a child's request to go to conversion therapy because we understand that it is bullshit. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CharlesBHallPhD @ericowensdc @AuraLeeHarvey If we're talking about gender pronouns, I agree that we should try to call people what they choose, but more generally I suspect you don't consistently believe "it is a matter of common courtesy to refer to people in the way they wish to be addressed" — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Melhyphen Like you, I think that conversion therapy is always a bad choice, because it is bullshit. I also think gender affirming treatment can be the right choice. But the question was "who decides". When you see a choice as damaging, you don't think the kid should be allowed to choose it — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@duanepaulmurph Okay, so sometimes you think the child should decide and sometimes you think the state should overrule what the child wants — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Melhyphen I didn't equate the two. And no, my framing isn't dishonest, just uncomfortable for you because it is forcing you to confront the fact that, like most of us, sometimes you think the child should decide but other times you think they should be overruled. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@GuiltyNAbsentia I'm a skeptic of the state too, but can I assume we both agree that the state should have laws against adults and children having sex, even if the kids say that they want to? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@bpellerin I share your skepticism of conversion therapy. I am just noting that when others say youth gender transition is torture and should be illegal, you disagree about *that assessment* rather than the question of *who decides* — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@whosgothisown I knew what? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Gurdur For the overwhelming majority of people I think that's correct. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@bpellerin Okay, so in that case you think that the state should decide, not the kid. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@duanepaulmurph Do you believe this in all cases? If a 13 year old boy tells his parents that he is attracted to boys but wants to go to conversion therapy because he wants to be attracted to girls should the parents help him to make that happen? I wasn't just asking about trans kids. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@Andrew_B_Bader Do you believe this in all cases? If a 13 year old boy tells his parents that he is attracted to boys but wants to go to conversion therapy because he wants to be attracted to girls should the parents help him to make that happen? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@kgborland Do you believe this in all cases? If a 13 year old boy tells his parents that he is attracted to boys but wants to go to conversion therapy because he wants to be attracted to girls should the parents help him to make that happen? — PolitiTweet.org
