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Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad that social taboos against textbook racism are good, and also that textbook racism is protected by the First Amendment and should not be censored. These are the kinds of distinctions we in the precision-based claims business, as opposed to the vibes based business, make. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad The problem is your inability to distinguish between a statement about what I favor censoring and what that quote is--a claim about what most opponents of cancel culture are against. If you would like to know my views on censorship, I think — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad I agree; I did not make a claim about what language and behavior should be allowed in public, I made a claim about what most people who use the term cancel culture mean by it; my claim was they don't mean *all taboos against textbook racism as it was understood in bygone decades* — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad I made no statement about what I am or am not against censoring; what I am for and against censoring has nothing to do with what happened to be taboo during my childhood. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad Obviously, norms against antiracism have varied vastly over time and among groups. And that in no way undercuts my claim about what most people who use the term cancel culture mean to encompass by it. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad How do you think that bears on this matter? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad I do not pretend, anywhere, that the antiracist taboos of the 1980s were objective. I do believe that the taboo against textbook racism was desirable. I do not position myself as "the arbiter" of what is correct. There are multiple errors in your understanding of my claims. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad What about those questions? I was making a narrow claim: that most people who use the term "cancel culture" as a pejorative are not objecting to the existence of *any taboos at all against racism*. Again, you could contest that point if you want, but that was the point. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad You could disagree with any of the contestable claims I made in that Tweet but as yet you haven't even been able to accurately identify them, so I don't think we're going to get anywhere. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad First, there is no error in that statement. Second, I noted when I was born to give readers a sense of the period I could personally remember when remarking on what was socially taboo, not to pick an arbitrary date when the status quo was "good." — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad I wrote, "I was born in 1980. As far back as I remember, what Adams said would've been regarded as beyond the pale bc textbook racism was rightly verboten in my circles. & most opponents of "cancel culture" were never objecting to *that* but to expansive new taboos." — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad Please point to any of these "countless" explanations so that we can all know what "error" you were referring? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad Typically evasive and empty of substance. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@CoreyAtad What, exactly, is the "error" I'm supposed to admit here? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@briantashman Do you disagree that it can be coherent to both oppose "cancel culture," defined as excessively punitive speech-policing of ill-defined norms, and also to oppose textbook examples of egregious racism? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism So just as I think one could coherently oppose McCarthyism and also think Julius Rosenberg was a spy who deserved what he got, I think one can coherently oppose "cancel culture" and also think urging racist segregation or calling a black person a monkey justifies social sanction — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism To me, we live in a world where all sorts of pile-ons and "cancellations" involve no clearly understood standard or longstanding, valuable taboo, and it's all of the obviously excessive punitive zealotry that worries me for our culture, not the existence of any taboos at all — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism and that even with that rule we could very easily maintain valuable taboos against textbook racism, like urging white people to judge black people as a group and segregate from them by skin color. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism that is violated, not as part of an exercise in sense-making, but e.g. in a rant meant to cast more heat than light. Now, it may be that excesses of "cancel culture" are so common that we should have a hard rule against firing someone from their job for any extramural speech, — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism I can see competing costs and benefits for different approaches, but wherever one comes down--wherever I would come down if I fleshed every question out completely--the cases I worry about least are when there is a clear, well-understood, widely embraced, longstanding taboo — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism In Germany, I get why there is a special taboo against Holocaust denial, and in America, I get why there is a similar taboo against Jim Crow style racism or hurling the n word at black people. How exactly should that taboo be enforced? I don't know, exactly — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism Or with regard to torture, I think that it ought to be taboo to torture people, and that various Bush era officials should face jail for torture, but I don't think a cartoonist should get fired for believing waterboarding was the right thing to do after 9/11. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism So with Communism, I'd say that, in America today, huge majorities agree both that *Communism is a bad system* and also *Red-Scare style persecution of communists was bad.* "McCarthy tactics" has a negative connotation even among many people who hate Communism. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism I'd like to disaggregate some different questions here: 1) What do people mean when they talk about cancel culture? 2) What does it mean for an issue to be "settled"? 3) What views ought to be taboo? 4) What views, if any, should cost someone their job? — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism No, as I keep telling people, even Communists should get to set forth their ideas without being shunned from polite society. — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@XBillups @studentactivism Well, I favor the Bill of Rights, so clearly, I do not think fundamental rights should be subject to majority opinion; at the same time, I do not wish to "cancel" everyone who disagrees with me about the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 9th and 10th amendments — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@hilzoy While I agree with you and have argued the same https://t.co/ZkZC2U2EJ5 I also think it is reasonable to perceive and complain about a culture of punitive speech-policing zealotry, as happened after 9/11 and again in the social media era — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@studentactivism RE gay marriage, I think as a matter of public opinion it is contested, not settled as a matter of near consensus, though I can imagine a future where that status shifts — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@studentactivism I separate what I myself regard as seriously morally wrong and what my society considers "beyond the pale"––e.g., IMHO the War on Drugs is immoral, but my society does not consider it "beyond the pale." In contrast IMHO slavery is wrong & my society does see it as beyond the pale — PolitiTweet.org
Conor Friedersdorf @conor64
@studentactivism And I answered, "I am distinguished from the group of people whose language I was explaining in that I try hard to avoid the flawed term 'cancel culture' by advancing more specific and particular critiques in associated controversies." & I pointed you here https://t.co/ZkZC2U2EJ5 — PolitiTweet.org
